Overpopulation Crowd

Hi,

I’m a student of environemntal studies and I definitely have lots of opinions relating to climate change! Of course, CO2 has always been a part of our atmosphere, and hopefully always will since we rely so much on the concentratins of specific gases in our atmosphere. A main concern for the increases that we are seeing today are notso much that there is more (that has happened before) it’s that it’s happening so fast. The world has never seen this kind of temperature change in only 100 years, and the Earth isn’t equipped to buffer the effects of the changes. As the ice caps are melting, it won’t matter for many of us until we realize that it’s a circular effect: melting caps releases trapped CO2 into the atmosphere, increasing the greenhouse effect, in turn melting the ice faster. Ths means stronger, less predictable storms as oceanic and atmospheric
patterns change, rising water levels, and more extreme seasons.

Here is an interesting link about an artist in NY drawing a flood line around Manhattan if the ocean were to rise 10 feet (definitely plausible with ice cap/permafrost melting).
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/16/arts/design/16chal.html?ex=1339646400&en=94a910d95f16bd2e&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

So, even if (IF!) all this was some cosmic error on behalf of most concerned scientists, are we really willing to risk it? Why not just reduce energy consumption?

I look forward to eharing what everyone else thinks! Thanks for reading.

Marianne~

The only thing I can say is what about the people and the ‘experts’ worrying about the coming ice age back in the 20′s and 30′s?? Now we are worrying about the so called Global Warming?

I believe God is in control of this planet, not us! I am currently trying to find the scripture (in Job I believe) how we can’t thrwart God’s plan.

I do believe in reducing energy consumption however not at the expense of our health and our finances. Do you know that Cheese, Milk, and all meats as well as corn prices are going through the roof?? It is unbelieveable. Those that are seeing the prices and the effect of using corn for fuel are seeing the big picture. I raise chickens. Did you know that the feed for chickens have gone up 2 more dollars by that bag? That means egg prices will also go up. Yes, we are stewards as God put us here. However according to scripture we are higher than Earth. We are put here on Earth by God. We are not an accident and that Earth is allergic to us.

Earth goes through cycles/shifts. Last year was the coldest summer I ever remember growing up. Now summer is about 88 degrees which is unusual as it usually hits about 95 degrees here in the summer. 2 years ago we had the coldest winter I ever remember. Last year winter weather was mild until January then it got cold (not bad though) up until March.

This is just a cycle that we are going through. It will pass!!!

The article Chris mentioned is a very scary article not because of what is happening but the attitude they have about humans. Do they know they themselves are human? It is scary to see/hear how they think of themselves. Go ahead and sacrifice your self but leave me out of it. I will take care of what God wants me to do which is to TRUST HIM for HE is in Control!!

Sorry I just get very frustrated when others devalue human life. That is a big difference between believers/followers of Christ and secularist/globalist.

Holly

Hi Holly,

Thank you for addressing my comments, I was nervous to post! I certainly didn’t mean to imply that I don’t value human life! The Earth has many cycles, some are in decades, some in centennial loops, and others in eons and more. Weather will always fluctuate, but the trend over time is a general increase in temperature (which will manifest as warmer in some places, colder in others etc). It’s hard for us to tell in our (relatively) short lifespans what’s going on in a planetary sense. Katrina was a freak storm, one of the record number of unexpected (in numbers and severity) experienced during the year. Is it a cause or an effect?

I think for me this big difference between (as you put it) believers/followes of Christ and secularist and globalists is that secularists assume more responsibility for what’s going on, because as you said you and many more trust God to be in control.

Surely there is a way we can have common goals regardless of beliefs! Holly, you said that humans are meant to be stewards, what does that mean for you? Can science and Christians work together, or is there an incompatability here (I am secular, this is a genuine question:-)

Perhaps we can look past the idea of humans being destructive and acknowledge that humans modify their environment, and we can be mindful of how we do that. We know that CO2 and other green house gases contribute to smog and health problems like asthma, that is a reason to reduce energy consumption. We know that run offs from very large factory farms pollute local waters and wells (we had a teerrible instance of this near my home where 9 people died about 5 years ago). We can improve on that.

North America uses 80% of the energy used in the world, but has only around %20 or so percent of the poulation…imagine if China and India consumes on an even scale! The atmosphere cannot absorb the changes that we are making in the chemistry of the planet, so God would really have to step in (or not, I guess but that would be devastating)…but we don’t NEED to push it that far, and how woud we know that it is the path we should take, when there are already alternatives available to us? I accept and respect the concept that God has a plan, and that many people trust in that but I don’t see how that absolves humanity of responsibility in recognizing signs we’re being given that things aren’t really okay any more.

I truly hope that I have not offended anyone that is visiting this site! I am trying my best to sound as respectful as I feel towards your faith. This topic is important to me and wouldn’t it be grand to find a common ground upon which to stand together!

Thank you

Marianne

Have any of you read the book _Crunchy Cons_? In a general sense, it kind of sums up our family’s views about conservation etc. God put Man here, in part, to care for the planet. Seems like to me the more “caretakers” we have, the better the planet, no? Of course, that assumes we will all do our best to be responsible for the li’l bit of Planet our Lord put each of us in charge of. I think, basically, “Respect Earth, Don’t Worship it.” And trust Scripture rather than sketchy science.
Blessings!

Hi Annie, thanks for your comments. I feel like I should back off but at the same time I think I’m the only one here who feels the way I do…and I love a good discussion!

I visited the site you recommended, but I didn’t find too much science there, or at least the science I am used to studying. But neither would I go to the Scientific American website to discover the scriptures…I think that science and Christianity clash on some fundamental issues, but that, in the case of environemntal stewardship it doesn’t need to matter.

I fully agree with you that hypocrisy is frustrating! I allow that Al Gore needs to fly to make his presentations (it wouldn’t be realistic in the society that we have built otherwise) but I absolutely would love to see people in the position to reduce consumption to go ahead and reduce! But, if Al Gore is a bad example of environmental stewardship, does that mean we should not bother with it at all? Especially the affluent of North America, the world’s worst offenders for excessive consumption (and waste production). Yes, China and many developing countries have terrible environmental records, but note that most North American companies produce in these countries for this exact reason…cheap products, and another country bears the ill effects. North America is a hot bed of responsibility, all over the world. Presdent G.W. Bush boasts the first increase in National wetlands in over 50 years, a triumph until you read the fine print…suddenly the golf water hazards are included as wetlands. It’s almost funny, except really it makes me feel cynical and betrayed.

I love hearing about families like the Jeubs, who really seem make everything count, reducing consumption, reusing whenever possible and wasting not a drop of their resources.
I celebrate that too. In the end, I don’t care why people do it, so long as they do. Some might decide that they would lke to have a single income family, or want to reduce dependence on Middle Eastern oil supplies, or that alternatives are the business market of the fuure, or it makes sense with their idea od God’s wishes for stewardship..whatever. The end result is: cleaner air, cheaper products, healthier people and fewer environemntal disasters and technological “fixes” needed. If God will destroy the Earth with fire, He will destroy the Earth with fire, could we really stop Him? Would it be wrong to preserve His creation? This is where I’m out of my depth!

I also think that North American families are few and far between who take resource conservation seriously. The thing that I just can’t wrap my head around are the basics of environmental concerns: humans are healthier, safer and wealthier with less consumption. The economy will flourish on whatever society demands. Texas is profiting nicely from their wind fields, and businessmen will not die with their trades, they will take their business skills to the next big boom. Yes, many things are expensive, but that can easily be tied to fuel costs (production, processing, transportation, materials based in petroleums like some plastics). I sincerely can’t understand why people don’t want to reduce dependence on petroleum fuels…everybody wins except OPEC but they are rich enough to last them a very, very long time!

Annie and others on this board, I appreciate and respect your discovery of God and Christianity, and I am truly happy for you. I don’t feel the same way as you, but in the end as long as we are safe and healthy, isn’t that okay? My grandmother is devoutly Catholic and worries for my soul, but the way I feel about God I know He would “know my heart” (a phrase I’ve heard before) and I feel alright. I’m doing my best, and I’m not against Him by any stretch of the imagination.

I guess I have made my point as much as I possibly can! Thanks for entertaining my thoughts (really, my life’s passion) with respect. I’ve enjoyed this lots, even though I still feel frustrated…such is life in times of great choice! Take care and think about supporting alternative energy production…why not keep the profits at home, right?
Best,

Marianne

OKAY, I’M GOING TO GET TECHNICAL… Before I begin, however, I would like to say that I believe Mr. Jeub should probably take this over due to the nature of this controversy.

You know Marianne, I wonder if this has occurred to anyone here: I think the deeper issue isn’t whether one nation is extremely good at being wasteful, resourceful, or otherwise, nor do I think that more environmentally friendly methods and people are ultimately the answer.

What I do know is that when sin entered our world in the garden of Eden, when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, our world was changed forever, and became what we know today as a fallen world. God did get angry at our sin and caused a world-wide flood that killed everything in its path but 8 people and 2 of each kind of animal, and he did promise never to allow such a flood again. But you see, this was part of an even bigger plan.

The idea is that God gave us a conscience, and with it we could choose to fear Him, or not. I think what we are dealing with is that so much of our world has forgotten this concept, therefore it has become easier to look the other way and find another group to blame, another cause to support, and another way to do things. After all, if the neighbors are doing it, who is to say that they aren’t doing it properly?? But you see, God also says that there is nothing new under the sun. AND – out of the dust man was made, and into the ground shall he return.

Without REALLY knowing Him, Marianne, not many of “us” believe that it will really matter in the end whether we took care of our planet or not. Yes, God expects us to be good stewards of our world, but He also gave man (people) dominion over all the earth. He didn’t do this to set us up to fail, and I don’t believe he did this because He sincerely thought we would be 100% successful. HOWEVER, some people have succeeded at training up their children to be soldiers for Christ, and that is a command that we HAVE been given. Children are an heritage from the Lord. Our purpose is to allow the Holy Spirit to disciple our children and be a light to others through us, so that God’s plans can be fulfilled when He so chooses.

So what I am getting at is the fact that you will probably NEVER meet a true “Christian” who will agree that we as men can ultimately change the fate of the earth as some groups would have the world believe. It’s not that we don’t “want” to help things out necessarily, but I think that we value eternal life a lot more than we do a fallen world, which we know for a fact is not going to stick around forever. In the end, I do believe that it comes down to this: you can accept Christ as your Savior, who died for YOUR SINS on the cross, so that you may have eternal life, and this will allow you to be at peace with the world’s condition as we see it today. The alternative is really not something I even want to think about, because as we know, fire hurts.

On this last note, you may be interested in reading the fiction, but BIBLE BASED novels by Tim LaHaye that are part of the LEFT BEHIND series. Even if you strictly read them for pure enjoyment. The books Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy and John (in the bible) are also really good reads. If this isn’t enough to convict you of the role of Christianity here on earth, I honestly don’t know what will.

In the meantime, I think that I speak for the group in saying that we would love to pray for you, especially because we know that you were nervous in posting on this site and it took great courage. I wonder if you realize the impact that loving God with all one’s might can have on your life. Please do not misunderstand us – Christians are NOT perfect. They never have been and never will be. But loving and obeying God’s commands can make the difference between making a good choice and a really bad one – in ALL aspects of life. It seems that so often we are quick to look for answers that just make “sense” to us regarding problems that make very little difference when compared to eternity. If only we would look at the evidence that is staring us right in the face, and accept it for what it is…

May you be blessed in your quest for a better planet, but furthermore, I pray that you may find Christ in the process.

Sincerely,
Annie

Annie, I don’t want to cut off this great discussion. I am thinking of pulling this into the forum area, but I have some technical things to take care of first.

I am interested on two fronts. First, I am seeing more and more of a hysteria in the media over global warming. I have tried to put my mind around the idea of radical temperature changes that would sink Manhattan, but I still don’t believe it. Marianne’s post was a pleasant appeal to consider the danger of such a thing (if!).

Second, I’m sort of surprised at how religious some of the responses have slid. Please, don’t doubt my faith when I say this, but the scientific validity of global warming is coming into conflict with child bearing. I don’t think this is a scripturally binding issue, one way or the other.

My real concern is on the issue of fear. I typically find the global warming folks use fear as a reason to pass costly governmental policies and, now, encourage parents to “have one less child.” I will listen to rational scientific arguments for and against global warming. However, I see the manipulative tool of fear being used on one side. My suspicions raise whenever someone tries to use fear as a reason for change.

I would personally love to hear from more liberal folks who do subscribe to the Al Gore crowd.

Hi,

I guess this thread is about dead, but I will ask my last questions and make my last points. Any more (unless it’s a question or coment for me)seems like things might be getting a bit circular (if anyone comes down here anymore .

1. Constructing logical arguments against global warming/climate change is great, science thrives upon scrutiny and challenges (which is why most things are labelled theories) BUT non-expert observations of weather patterns in a neighbourhood/region will not convince the sceintific community which has built solid theories and made conclusions based on decades and decades of dedicated and GLOBAL observations and experiments. There are hordes of atmospheric scientists, oceanographers, geologists, hydrologists and ecologists paying very close attention to the complex systems here on Earth. If it was cold during a typically warm time in your home state, it doesn’t in any way represent the global scheme of things. It’s not a compelling argument for me.

2. Chris, about your comment of fear mongering. I agree that people make radical statements, but often these people are fringe members of society and don’t represent the whole of the scientific community, same as some individuals are poor representatives of Christianity, even though they may call themselves Christians. To me, what you’re referring to is the idea of consequences for actions. I can see how it would seem needless if you don’t accept the idea of climate change and environemntal damage caused by certain human behaviour, however, to me air pollution = poor air quality = more respiratory problems due to smog etc. This “prediction” is logical, though many don’t seem to make the connection between their daily actions and these problems (consider food miles i.e. how far food gets trucked to get to your door and all the plastics they are wrapped in..it’s all costing fuel). So, yes I fully agree there are people making false and inflammatory statements out there, BUT focusing on these cases are detrimental to both sides, since nobody thinks they are helpful. Why condemn a whole field of study for people who are sometimes the loudest but not the smartest?

3. What makes good science and bad science? All science is based on the same principles. Science (which I totally accept could be considered a gift from God, or through God) made it possible for vaccines, plastics and the Weather Network. All of these things don’t always perform as we think they should, but we learn, modify and adapt. How is environmental science eny different? Nobody says science is absolute and there are certainly things we don’t understand yet BUT that does not clarify for me why poeple don’t want to stop dumping wastes in our freshwater, pumping contaminants into our air and so-on. It is withouth fail cheaper, safer/healthier and easier to conserve energy. Same with scriptures, whis, as I’ve mentioned I haven’t studied closesly. Most people who respended with “well, God said to have stewardship over the earth” followed it up with a big “but” statement afterwards. “Be fruitful and multiply” is taken literally, but not the “stewardship” phrase…can anyone help me out here?

I supposed it could be oversimplified in my brain, but to me, if this earth is temporary, then so is your house, but you probably still like to keep it clean, right? Everybody likes a clean house, and that’s when I lose the thread of people who aren’t as into it as me!

Anyway, as always, it’s been interesting!
Tale care

Marianne

Ha ha! You’re right, I guess the thread isn’t dead…though I hope it’s okay that I keep responding so much. I love the point form, it makes it so much easier to organize and reflect on the thoughts coming through!

Chris, when I read your thoughts, I find myself nodding and agreeing.

1. Yes, I find it very frustrating to hear “environemntalists” suggesting that the heat is GW, when the people in question are in a region not expected to be currently experienceing climate change. Those poeple are also choosing ignorance and make my life seem harder! Australia’s in their 8th year of record drought, their reservoirs are low to empty and they are in a water crisis. It probably doesn’t make the US news, but they are definitely aware of climate change…their rain/drought cycle has changed. I would like to point out that change isn’t necesarily bad…some farmers will see longer growing seasons. What’s bad is the unpredictability of things, such as massive storms, droghts etc. Climate change makes it really really hard for us to plan the way we all traditionally have.

2. I also agree that many people including scientists don’t think that people mean doom for the planet…I don’t really think that actually (believe me or not )! I think that some people have very harmful practices, which are building harmful momentum. It scares me and concerns me because I think we can do better. I’m so glad you brought up acid rain! I almost forgot about it. This is a beautiful example of two perspectives on an issue. To me, acid rain is a triumph…it was a big problem (killing lakes in Canada, melting statues in Europe which were made of marble…dissolves in acidic conditions) and…we did somehting about it! We reduced the sulphite emissions, ppassed legislations, we altered our habits and we beat acid rain. This is what we hope to achievee with GW. It’s not in full swing yet, but when it is (allowing current projections by accepted environemntal scientists based on our current trends), it will be a heck of a train to stop.

3. I’d like to add that never in my studies or professional life as federal employee have I ever heard of people being encouraged to have fewer kids, except in jest as a way of making the point of “North Americans are extremely wasteful, as much or more than a huge fanily elsewhere”. Have smarter, more efficiently-minded kids. In the end, North Americans are the most wasteful on the planet by a really long shot. Some people choose to contribute fewer North Americans, some choose to raise aware children. I’d rather have 4 Jeub families than 1 Hilton clan, in terms of consumption and resource use.

So, out there in the Internet world: what would it take to change concern for pollution into action against it? What would be your trigger?

Chris, you got me. I can’t stay away!

Marianne